User talk:184.57.200.20
Hi, welcome to the Metal Gear Wiki. Thanks for your edit to the The Patriots page. ' '. It's an easy way to keep track of your contributions and helps you communicate with the rest of the community. Please leave a message on my talk page if I can help with anything! -- Fantomas (Talk) 16:19, November 13, 2010 Liquid and FOXALIVE In case you haven't noticed, Liquid Ocelot flat out admits to Solid Snake that he was using Snake and FOXALIVE to destroy the Patriots. I'll even supply you the quote: Snake : Why? You could have stopped us? Liquid Ocelot : Stopped you? turns around to look at Snake. Liquid Ocelot : Why would I want to do that? This is just as I'd hoped things would end. This indicates that the FOXALIVE thing was actually his true plan. Weedle McHairybug 15:05, November 21, 2010 (UTC) To him, it would have worked either way. FOXALIVE wans't his "true plan", it was a back up. However, he didn't realize that Sunny modified FOXALIVE to preserve society. -Wiki Contributor ::The way he worded it made it seem as though it actually was his true plan. I mean, most people would not say "This is just as I'd hoped things would end." if the event that transpired was actually his backup plan. I know I wouldn't have. Weedle McHairybug 19:10, November 21, 2010 (UTC) ::No one cares about what you would have said. The fact is that Liquid Ocelot believed that, no matter if he launched the nuke, or if he had Snake upload FOXALIVE, he wins. The Patriots are destroyed, world chaos ensures, "the people will fight, and through battle, they will know the fullness of life." That is what he was referring to. The thing is; he was clueless to the fact that Sunny modified the virus to preserve society, preventing the world chaos he had predicted, as Otacon explains. -Wiki contributor. :::And again, the problem lies with the wording. First off, if it were intended to be a "backup plan", he'd launch the nuke much sooner, then if that failed, then he'd "allow" Snake onboard Outer Haven while making it seem as though he wasn't trying to do so so that FOXALIVE would certainly put an end to the system. The definition of a "Backup plan" is a plan that is enacted when the original plan failed. And if you are going to act as though that meant absolutely little towards his plans, then you might as well say that Naomi creating FOXALIVE was also never part of Ocelot's plans and was at best a backup, even though not only was it mentioned that it was, but even Big Boss pretty much mentioned that Naomi, Ocelot, and Big Mama pretty much intended for this to be the case. Weedle McHairybug 19:23, November 21, 2010 (UTC) :::If you're going to be that picky about my word choice, then just look at it like this; no matter what happens (ie if Liquid has to launch the nuke, or if Snake uploads FOXALIVE), he wins. If he launches the nuke, it will be "just as he had hoped things would end." Instead, Snake uploads FOXALIVE, This is still "just has he had hoped things would end." Because either way, it would spark an age of persistent universal warfare (Liquid Ocelot explicitly said that's what he wanted. "Soon American will descend into chaos. It'll be the wild west all over again. No law... no order... the people will fight, and through battle... they will know the fullness of life. At last our father's will... his Outer Heaven... is complete.") BUT, Otacon explains soon after that, that Sunny modified FOXALIVE to PRESERVE society, PREVENTING the world chaos Liquid Ocelot had fought for. You know what? Just agree with that last part and I'll be happy. -Wiki contributor ::::I'll agree that Sunny edited FOXALIVE to just cut off the Patriots from basic needs among other things. Heck, as you said Otacon mentioned it. That doesn't mean, however, that Liquid Ocelot actually did plan on descending the world into chaos. Most likely, he said those things to keep Snake believing that he was still possessed by Liquid. Besides, when Big Boss was explaining to Solid Snake the events of the game, not once did he even mention that Naomi, Big Mama, or even Ocelot wanted to instill global chaos. In fact, the only thing he mentioned about their plan was trying to free Big Boss from them and also stopping The Patriots. If Liquid Ocelot truly intended to just turn it into a warzone, I'm pretty sure Big Boss would have mentioned something such a plan, especially how it was implied that Naomi told him about the entire events that transpired. Weedle McHairybug 20:07, November 21, 2010 (UTC) ::::What would be the point in "pretending" to be Liquid? Everything was said and done long before that. Ocelot wanted to destroy the Patriots (without any of Sunny's modifications) in order to awaken Big Boss and fulfill his twisted interpretation of the Boss' will (ie Outer Heaven.) Why else would he work to revive him? He idolized him, and shared his vision of Outer Heaven. Ocelot's database profile even says that he worked for Big Boss while pretending to operate under Zero's command. Big Boss seemed to have distanced himself from the other Patriots members in PW, so Ocelot could have only worked under Big Boss after Outer Heaven was established (ie after he let go of the Boss and started going in the wrong direction.) Whether Big Mamma was in on Ocelot's plan the entire time is debatable, but I'm certain that Naomi was secretly working against Ocelot (at least from the ending of MGS1 onward) much like how the Boss pretended to work with Volgin during Operation: Snake Eater. If she wasn't, then why on Earth would she work so hard to revive Big Boss, only to tell him that he needs to expose himself to Snake's new strain of FOXDIE in order to prevent his suicide? (Big Boss said that Naomi WANTED him to tell Snake everything. "There's one more thing Naomi wanted me to tell you... about the old FOXDIE in your body...") And don't cite the strategy guide. Strategy guides aren't a 100% reliable source for canon (take, for example, the MGS3 guide, which says that the DOD guy that talked to the DCI about FOXHOUND was Roy Campbell. This obviously isn't the case.) And if you plan on using that against me citing the database; even if I were to throw that away, it's pretty obvious that Ocelot idolized/was fighting for Big Boss. Big Mamma even said so in Act 3. -Wiki contributor :::::If Naomi wanted to destroy Big Boss out of hate, then she could have easily stolen the body and then just burn it as she laughs maniacally at its destruction in a manner similar to Kefka Palazzo. That's a lot more simple than simply working to have Big Boss revived and then sending him off to be killed by Snake's FOXDIE. Plus, in case you've forgotten, Ocelot's reason for wanting to shoot JD out of the sky was to replace it with GW (having gone Rogue thanks to Emma's worm cluster), and assuming his real plan was to kill off the Patriots, which it is, then that was obviously not what he wanted. Besides, as you just said, she wanted Big Boss to tell Snake everything, and she told him everything, so why would he conveniently leave out Liquid Ocelot's plan of wanting to create a place constantly plagued with Warfare that was supposed to be Big Boss's dream, especially how, at least the constant warfare part about it, was pretty much achieved by 2014 anyways, and if his dream was simply having warriors constantly fight it out, there was absolutely no need for them to do that, as they succeeded anyways. Let me guess, you're JohnKiller18? Fantomas, Bluerock, please back me up... Weedle McHairybug 20:47, November 21, 2010 (UTC) :::::Naomi wanted to "atone for her sins." FOXDIE and her nanomachine research were put to much use by the Patriots. So, she had to play along with Liquid Ocelot's plans in order to get rid of them. In order to make things less complicated for you, I'll assume that Liquid Ocelot did in fact want Snake to upload FOXALIVE. Naomi convinced him that the only way to finish the virus was to get "rescued" by Snake and Otacon and trick them into finishing the virus and uploading it. However, she was originally going to collaborate with Otacon to finish the virus so it would get rid of the Patriots, while also preserving society. She had Sunny do all that instead. Going back to the nuke thing, Liquid Ocelot said it best himself;he wanted to free SOLDIERS from the grips of SOP . He wasn't concerned about anyone else. Just SOLDIERS. Big Boss didn't directly mention Ocelot's plans for world chaos because, well, that was already explained in the entire game. Actually, he seems to show a bit of contempt towards Ocelot in this scene (the way he says his name has a very harsh and angry tone. The way I interpret it, he's angry at himself because he pretty much turned him into the monster he became, since Ocelot was obsessed with Big Boss.) The war economy isn't exactly what Big Boss and Ocelot wanted to achieve with Outer Heaven. Yeah, war was going on all the time, but it was all controlled. You could only fire a gun if they allowed you to. They used nanomachines to control and regulate people's SENSEs. It was a very watered down version of the "joy of battle." And since we're accusing people of being someone else, are you this guy ? -Wiki contributor ::::::Yes, I am he. And for the record, she could easily just eliminate Big Boss before the events of the game, and then attempt to atone for her sins involving FOXDIE. And as for the thing about being explained in the entire game, so was the Patriots History, yet he didn't mind talking about that. And I didn't really sense any contempt towards Ocelot in that scene. Besides, technically, Volgin turned Ocelot into a monster long before Big Boss did, since Volgin was directly responsible for turning Ocelot into a torture obsessed maniac. The reason why I accused you of being JohnKiller18 was because you sound a LOT like him. Weedle McHairybug 21:53, November 21, 2010 (UTC) ::::::Naomi was in jail for most of the time between MGS1 and 4. And when Liquid busted her out of there, she had to stay with him in order to avoid suspicion while Big Mamma finishes reconstructing him. So there was no time for her to get to Big Boss' body. That tape she left Big Boss was a last ditch effort to get what she wanted. And hey, it worked, didn't it? Big Boss didn't really re-explain the Patriots for no reason. He wanted to get his "zero" metaphor across. I'm not sure how to convince you that Big Boss' tone sounded very angry when he said "Ocelot." While Volgin did play a role in turning Ocelot into a monster, Ocelot still looked up to Big Boss much like Raiden looked up to Solid Snake (or, more appropriately, how Fatman looked up to Stillman.) In retrospect, he felt that he should have helped him become a better person. Instead he only fueled his downfall (which is very tragic, considering that he's actually the Boss' son.) What I'm saying is that, he was disgusted at what Ocelot tried to do, and hated himself for inspiring him to do it. Overall, I think Big Boss goes over the "there is no good or evil in MGS" thing here . Yes, everyone in the series fought for their freedom, but only Solid Snake was able to achieve it. After all, when you think about it, Snake is actually the true successor to the Boss' will. -Wiki contributor :::::::Maybe so, but that still doesn't excuse Snake's actions, especially considering the heavy implications that he enjoys all the killing. Even if you argue that Liquid and Psycho Mantis were lying, that still leaves us with Meryl and Campbell, the former of whom would have absolutely no reason or even an agenda for saying that Snake enjoys watching people die around him, loves war, and doesn't want it to ever go away, and the latter was only forced to withhold secrets from Snake because Meryl was threatened, and otherwise had absolutely nothing to gain, plus the fact that he mentioned that Snake's file had "enough dirt in it to lock him up until he was an old man." Now, if he absolutely never killed anyone, had felt even more dead whenever he sees death around him, similar to Jesus Christ, then maybe, just maybe, he'd truly fulfill the Boss's will. Besides, the part about trying their hardest to keep things the same makes absolutely no sense whatsoever: If that was her desire, guess what? There would be no civil rights, there would be no Jesus Christ to save us from original sin. There would still be slavery in the United States, there would still be a lot of things wrong in society moreso than today. That's the biggest problem with her will. She's basically saying that there should not be an impact, that basically we should be completely frozen in time, that we cannot improve ourselves, that all injustices have to remain. Also, the Stillman and Fatman analogy was probably not that good of an analogy, as Fatman did not actually look up to his mentor at all, and in fact just wanted to kill him for little reason other than to surpass him and be famous for it. Whatever the case, let's just agree to disagree, although going by the whole Wiki standards, we're probably not even going to do that. Weedle McHairybug 00:15, November 22, 2010 (UTC) :::::::"To let the world be" (the Boss' will) isn't about neutrality. Far from it. It's about giving the next generation a chance to shine. While what Psycho Mantis, Liquid, and Meryl said to Snake may be true at the time (even though I think Mantis' words are completely baseless, and Liquid is full of bias), the character has changed so much since then that it's all become irrelevant. Now he actually cares about what happens to the world. He fights for a future. Just look at him in MGS2! What I meant with the Fatman analogy, is that Stillman created a memetic time bomb in Fatman, because of his failure to teach "the things that mattered" to Fatman. Think Big Boss and Ocelot as a mix between Raiden/Snake and Fatman/Stillman. -Wiki contributor ::::::::No, it's not: The Boss's will was more like this: ::::::::Big Boss: Boss... You were right. It's not about changing the world. It's about doing our best to leave the world... The way it is. ::::::::Using those exact literal words, that means we have to, going as far back as one can go up to the present day, not having Judaism, not having the Hebrews travel constantly, not have the constant wars, Rome never existed, Christianity, and Jesus's sacrifice, not to mention, never happened, no slavery, no abolition, no revolutionary war, pretty much every event, every breakthrough in history would never have happened because we basically kept the world the way it is, with absolutely no change. Time is frozen, and so are we. I'm someone who is uncomfortable with change and prefers that things stay the same, and even I see the absolute fallacy in this will. Also, Psycho Mantis basically read Snake's mind, so that's as base as one can get, and Liquid was technically correct, seeing how Snake did actually have the option of refusing, and wasn't really forced into the situation (heck, Campbell even admitted that he knew that Blackmail was not going to work on Snake, and in fact knew that he wouldn't even need Blackmain to get Snake to cooperate). And I'm not entirely sure about MGS2, considering the fact that Raiden mentioned that the methods he's doing is more comparable to Terrorism than grassroots resistance. It's not really what Raiden said that made it clear that it wasn't just that, it was more Snake's response to it that sealed the deal for me: He actually agreed that that is exactly what he was doing. Weedle McHairybug 01:26, November 22, 2010 (UTC) ::::::::Then don't take it literally. He means not imposing your will on the world (like the Patriots), but rather try to get it across using the "voluntaryist" method as the article explains. "To Let The World Be" is Philanthropy's motto. Don't you think that's a little odd for an anti-Metal Gear/Patriot group, assuming that the phrase is meant to be interpreted literally? Anyway, like I said, I simply fail to see how Mantis' words can be based on reason. Maybe it's just poor writing on Kojima's part for not providing us with reasons for why Mantis said all of that. And if he did, then I'm simply not convinced. But regardless, AGAIN, you're ignoring Snake's character development since MGS1. Like Campbell said. "it's true that Snake has killed allot of people, but that doesn't mean he has no heart." And ever since MGS1, he no longer fights for himself. He fights for everyone, for a future, and defends them from those that wish them harm. That thing about Snake being a terrorist is more about him willing to fight for his beliefs (ie rid the world of Metal Gears), even if it means accepting whatever title the public gives him for it. -Wiki contributor